How to Build Rapport and Trust With Your Chair

Andrew: Welcome do Diligent’s second webinar in the series of the Governance Institute of Australia. Our kickoff webinar looked at cyber security at the board level, which is available for download on both the Diligent and Governance Institute websites. My name is Andrew Carrick and I’m the Customer Success Director for Australia New Zealand for Diligent. Diligent provides governance software for boards and leadership teams. We have over 140,000 users worldwide across 72 countries. Just a little housekeeping to cover, this live webcast will run for 45 minutes and we will take questions at the end of the session. If you would like to pose a question, please do through the “Ask a Question” button at the bottom right of the screen. You will also receive a survey at the end to provide your feedback and any questions we weren’t able to cover during the session. It will be managed directly between you and the guest speakers.

Today’s session we will be looking at how to build rapport and trust with your chairperson and offering some practical advice and traps to avoid. We’re delighted to have two guest speakers with us today to provide their insights on this topic. Firstly, David Schwartz is the Managing Director of Board Direction, the company set up to help people develop board careers. He was previously an international head hunter and non-executive recruiter who has interviewed and assessed thousands of non-executives and placed hundreds of candidates into some of the most significant public, private and not-for-profit roles in the world. He’s also a published author and has spoken at the Governance Institute of Australia’s various CEO forums and national events. He leads board search courses across Australia and has been quoted as Australia’s Leading Board Recruitment and CV Writing Expert. Finally, he’s an avid LinkedIn user with over 20,000 connections.

Our chair guest speaker today is Kyle Loades. He was appointed as the Director to the NRMA in 2005 and became President and Chairman in 2014. During his tenure as President and Chairman, Kyle has overseen a period of significant transformation and growth. This year, a new CEO was appointed and the NRMA embarked on an aggressive new strategy to place itself at the front of its members’ needs in the coming years. Prior to NRMA, Kyle successfully established, grew and ran an independent car brokering business that disrupted the motor vehicle retail industry. The business introduced a new and easier way for people to purchase new and used cars and almost 15 years of successful growth, the business was purchased by a listed company and integrated into their [inaudible 00:02:42] operations. Kyle has a special interest in the delivery of emergency services and community infrastructure. Currently, he’s the Director of Hunter Medical Research Institute and Chairman of its foundation. He was the Director of Westpac Rescue Helicopter Service for 16 years. Kyle is the past President of the Hunter Business Chamber and is a life member and former President of Nobby’s Surf Life Saving Club. Welcome Kyle and David. [crosstalk 00:03:04]

So to kick off, we’ll start by understanding how the landscape for the chair and board has changed. Kyle, from a Director’s and now a Chairman’s point of view, how has the role of the chair changed over the past five years and what do you see as the critical requirements of new board members to support those changes?

Kyle: Thanks, Andrew. There’s no doubt at all that it’s a highly competitive changing world. Every industry, every organisation is going through a business cycle which is getting much shorter. The role of the chair and indeed the whole board, is to understand that shorter cycle and to make sure it’s considering how it deals with the risks and challenges of a shorter cycle and working with the CEO to address the strategy and also to have the skill set to delivery on the strategy. That is the changing role of the chair and all board members need to be skilled enough to work through these challenging times, but great times in business.

Andrew: Fantastic.

David: Kyle, do you think that’s the same whether it be a not-for-profit, a medium size business or a large business?

Kyle: Great question, David. There’s no doubt in our view, every business and every industry is going through this cycle. So, what’s worked in the last five years or decade right up until this point, there’s no guarantee of success in the future. When you look at digital disruption, every business, every industry can be disrupted whether you’re a charity or not-for-profit or whether you’re a large business. You need to be more agile and flexible and have the skills to confront what’s coming to you and then develop the new strategy to deliver on that. That’s a great question.

Andrew: Fantastic. Thanks, Kyle. I’d like to ask David a question now. What do you think are the core skills and attributes that a chairperson is now looking for in a new board member?

David: Yeah, thanks, Andrew. I think there are five core elements to a successful appointment or to gauge success in a new director. I think that’s the same regardless of the scope or the scale of an organisation. The first one is prior governance experience. So, having worked on or understanding boards and have they operate, I think that’s key. I think the second is around an executive skill set. You talked about the changing environment, I think those skill sets change over time at board level and you need directors that are going to meet the skills needed to deliver as a board. The third I think is around your networks and connections. Being up to date around the changes that are happening in the governance space and in the sector I think is important. Understanding how you can then leverage those is key.

The fourth for me is around passion. It’s all about schoolgirl passion and love for an organisation. It’s about genuinely being passionate about how you can contribute to the organisation to the workings of the board to achieve whatever it is, the ambition of the organisation is. I think there’s this fifth element around cultural fit. It’s about how do you work well with the chair, how do you work well with other board members, how do you work with the executive, how do you operate at board level, who do you know in common, how do you provide real comfort to the chair so that they get a sense that you are doing what is required successfully.

Kyle: David, I’d agree with that and I’d add an additional one and that is a commitment to lifelong learning. Because when you start on a board at any level, whether it’s your first board or your fifth, the world is changing and evolving and you must have the self awareness to understand how good you are now, what your current skill set is and what else do I need to do to keep raising the bar, to get to the next level. That is an attitude that is so important and will be even more important in the coming decade.

David: Arrogance at a board level can be a real failure of a board. It can lead to disruption, it can lead to a clashing of heads and minds. By definition, being part of a board is being part of a group of decision makers. Thinking that you know everything and you can only teach is really disruptive.

Andrew: Very true.

David: I think there are others as well, it’s probably around diversity and training, governance training. I think they are also useful. That would be my top five.

Andrew: Excellent. Thanks. If an individual is considering gaining a board appointment, what would you suggest they need to do when talking to the chair, maybe initially with yourself, David?

David: Sure. I think the first thing any perspective candidate needs to understand is that the chair is key in this process. Yes, they’re going to have other stakeholders but they need to engage in the appointment process but understand that the chair and their reputation absolutely needs to be addressed. He needs to therefore provide comfort to myself, the recruiter or the chair directly that they are the best possible person for the role. In order to do that, you need to be absolutely clear about what your contribution is going to be. It might be valuable in an executive capacity, but you need to understand how it’s valuable at board level and how those skills can lead to better board decision-making, better strategy, better future-proofing your business.

Kyle: I agree with that. I think it’s so important to have a conversation, whether it’s informally or formally with the chair to understand the chair’s expectations. Many organisations have an annual review which then looks at how are we going to work together as a board, what are the expectations of the chair? Also making sure that doesn’t conflict with the role of the CEO. So it’s really separated so then it’s crystal clear, these are the expectations over the next 12 months or beyond, and then you chip away at working to achieve that.

David: That’s interesting. The delineation between chair and CEO or board and CEO is tough. How do you manage that?

Kyle: Well, particularly for new Directors that have maybe come from an executive background, the instinct is often to stay at the lower level of detail, more executive knowledge, etc. is great but the reality is the role of any director and the chair is to stay above. You’ve gotta be getting the strategy right, the corporate governance right, and do it at a high level, manage the CEO. Don’t dig too deep and be a CEO, that is one of the mistakes for new directors.

David: Particularly true for experienced Directors. I think there’s a great temptation to want to do the day job.

Kyle: There is and that’s the role of the chair is to manage that, too. When you go through a board review process, often this is [inaudible 00:09:57] out from peer review or from the chair’s experience. It’s so important to make sure if that’s happening it’s knocked on the head because it’s not good for productivity and effective board outcomes if that keeps up.

David: Yeah, frustrating for the CEO, too.

Kyle: Oh, no doubt about it.

Andrew: Fantastic. Kyle, from your point of view, what are the best methods for board members to increase their influence and how do influential conversations add value to the board?

Kyle: Great question. If you want to increase your influence, it’s all about knowledge. So if you’re getting to a board meeting, it’s all about doing the basics of being a professional board member. You’re giving respect to the chair and other NAD’s and also to the CEO and staff. When it comes to the time to talk about an issue, making sure that you know your brief. So what is the background of the organisation and its industry? If it’s about a specific issue, do you know [inaudible 00:10:54] if you want to talk about a specific issue, when you’re most effective is if you get all that right and you’re not just talking at another executive level like the previous question. You’re actually talking at the strategic level. Considering implications on if we do this, what is the flow on effect of, a good thing or a bad thing, or an unintended consequence? When you’re actually contributing that way, you’re adding significant value to the board to achieve its goals of creating strategy and for the CEO to deliver on the strategy.

Andrew: And Kyle, how often are those conversations had at board level as opposed to outside of a formal board environment? Do you think those informal conversations are as powerful?

Kyle: Equally powerful. There’s no doubt that it’s an important role of the board to have the allocated time on an issue at a board meeting but equally, there are many conversations that go on behind the scenes that actually add to the value or you can actually change your mind even. Well, what do you think about this? They’re actually important conversations, often not just between the board and the chair, but sometimes between the board the CEO to clarify, so that by the time you get to the board meeting or the committee meeting, you’re more effective because you’re more informed.

David: I think one of the phrases I’ve heard is that no surprises rule at board level. [inaudible 00:12:13] other board members don’t want to be surprised by a left field comment decision when it should have been robustly discussed with more time outside of, and informally, with the board.

Kyle: That’s a very good point. The good thing about boards and politics and what have you, it’s very Democratic, so everyone has a view and if an instigator will vote, so be it, but often things don’t need to go to a vote because there’s a consensus of thought and often that is based on some of the conversations outside the boardroom. There is no doubt that no surprises rule is pragmatic and practical. It doesn’t always happen, but it should do for the sake of people getting on together and for effective outcomes.

David: So that’s interesting. There’s this idea about getting on together. How important is that at board level? Obviously you don’t want a fractured board, but equally I’m guessing you’d want some sort of robust debate with differing perspectives and that can sometimes cause clashing of opinions and personalities.

Kyle: You’re absolutely right. It’s so important that everyone has an equal contribution on any issue. There’s no doubt about that. If you get it wrong and it becomes aggressive, you’ve actually got an issue and the chair needs to address that and work one on one with issues. There are times where some individuals don’t give the full respect to others that they could or should and often there can be conflict. You don’t want to have on any big issue a split decision where it’s split right down the board. A good chair will then stick back and work with it and maybe put it off until he next board meeting and see where we go from here. It’s so important that all board members consider the views of others and have respect for that. Having respect for others and the chair and the staff is so important to maintaining relationships so it is harmonious.

David: So on that note, if there’s an individual board members who may have an opposing view to that which is common thought on the board, almost like their [inaudible 00:14:20] the chair or something or other board members, what do they do? How do they manage that risk?

Kyle: Well various times I have seen that, whether it’s a not-for-profit board or a larger company and sometimes that board member just needs to have their say and understand that they’re one off, that the rest of the board believes a certain way and that’s fair enough. As long as it’s dealt with respectfully, there’s no problem at all with that. It’s important that the chair probably understands that before you go into a board meeting to make sure that that’s well considered, but the bottom line is that’s fine. It’s a Democratic world, it’s important that every board member has their say and feels like they’re being listened to. It is so important not to make them feel isolated just because they’ve got a different view.

David: I think that’s core to being a board member, having the confidence to be able to provide a perspective. That’s one of the reasons they’re on the board, to provide, to robustly discuss decision-making processes and strategy and what have you. Otherwise you become a group think situation which doesn’t help anyone.

Kyle: Group think is not going to get the business organisation to where it needs to get to the in the future. There’s no doubt, that I really respect … you know, it’s amazing, I have over 15 years being on boards. Some of the left field ideas that have come out of scenarios that I didn’t think it would have, eventually led the organisation to change tact and for a better outcome. So, you’ve got to allow individuals to say what they think, otherwise, if you feel like you’re confined to narrow spaces, you’ll stay narrow and you won’t be setting yourself up to be in a sustainable organisation.

David: I agree, I had the same experience. It’s that individual who continues to ask the difficult questions and you think, goodness gracious, can’t we move on, which actually is where, often, the real value comes from, those discussions that follow that.

Kyle: The main thing is that it’s at the higher end. It’s not, where was that penny. If there’s going to be a question and a point of difference that it’s in the end of strategy or it’s at the higher level of compliance. That is so important because they’re the big things that a board needs to be good at individually and as a collective.

Andrew: To pick up on the points we were discussing there, let’s say we have a director that is new to a board and they come up against some conflict, they come up to a bit of a rocky start in terms of the relationship with the other board members. How do you suggest they go about repairing that and turning things around to make sure the relationship is not further eroded?

Kyle: Andrew, it’s so important, the relationship between the chair and any individual board member is so important. The board member just feel like they have the ability and respect of the chair to talk confidentially about any issue, including the one you’ve just described. It really is in the chair’s role to understand that and to facilitate what’s really going on here. There are times when it’s just a conflict as a one off or is there other things going on? Is there personality clashes? Is there little subgroups forming at a board. This is when you’ve gotta be good at the chair level to understand and to give advice. I’ve got no doubt at all that if things get off on the wrong foot for an individual board member, that can be corrected very quickly. If you’re taking your career as a board member seriously, then you want to go to the next level and have self-awareness of am I producing here and if I judge myself at, say a scorecard of seven out of 10, I’ve got to learn where else to go next and have an open mind about that, as do the rest of the board at the same time to be effective, not only as an individual, but as a collective.

David: I think core to repairing any reputational matters that might come up is just being clear about why it is you’re on the board, why you were placed on that board in the first place and as a result, what is it then that you have to do. What is your responsibility? If you have Marketing expertise, then going head to someone over a small financial issue is not going to help your reputation because that’s not necessarily where your strengths lie. Yes, be involved in the competition, but I think it’s really about focusing on what your core element is that you bring to a board and making sure that you do that really well.

Kyle: Yeah, I’d agree with that. Everybody comes from a skill set or an industry or a background that can be very specific, but as a board member, you’ve got to be an all arounder. You’ve got to understand what’s going on in the world, within the industry, within that company and have broader skills and not be so much just a specific skill set from your background. It’s not easy today, particular for first timers, but it’s so important. The good board members can develop those skills over time and add on to their knowledge base and become very effective.

David: So doing your time and learning from other board directors I think is absolutely crucial. It’s going to help you not fall into traps that so many new directors do about overstepping the mark.

Kyle: No doubt about that. Good organisations have an annual review process which enable individuals to be judged by others as well as the chair. If you’ve got an open mind and you want to be [inaudible 00:19:47] director as a career then we’ve all got to be aiming to be better, developing the skills and knowledge and how things work around a board table. You can have a very successful career if you get that right.

Andrew: Do you think that sort of review process, 12 months is about right? I hear some discussion around whether it’s every two years, every 12 months, what are your thoughts around the timing of those reviews?

Kyle: At least every two years. NRMA is in the middle of its second review within a couple of years. In part that has to do with we changed over half the board so there was a lot of change. We all wanted to get some consensus of the new strategy. What are we good at? What are the gaps? And what are we going to do individually and as a collective to fill the gap of skills and experiences. It takes time, it’s not going to happen overnight. It’s about awareness of yourself and what’s going on as a collective.

David: It’s also about, I would imagine, the ones that I do, it’s about measuring the performance of the board over a period of time. We measure everything else and board performance can be measured regardless of the change of board directors. You can still understand and measure against certain criteria to see how the board is performing. I think doing them more regularly than less regularly is a good thing. The real key is not just accepting a report at the end of the day and putting it on a shelf, but it’s actually understanding what’s come out of that and spending some time reinvesting in that review so that you can change habits that need to be changed.

Kyle: David, I’d agree with that. Just like a good strategy is only a good strategy and is extremely good if you implement it, there’s no doubt that when you go through a board review process, and there’s gaps identified, and it’s going to take a year or two to implement, it’s the role of the chair to manage and tick off on every item as they’re implemented. Then ultimately, I like benchmarking against best practice of other organisations because if you’re just judging yourself, they you might not be judging yourself high enough. It’s a bit like the high jumper at the Olympics, you want to break the Olympic high jump record as a goal in relation to board review benchmarking and making sure that’s what we aim for. If you get that right, you’re giving yourself as an organisation every chance at being around for the next 100 years as opposed to being a victim of what’s going on in the world and disruption, etc.

David: I think that’s really interesting, that idea of benchmarking. I think it’s challenging to find an organisation that is similar enough for you to benchmark against, though. I think that can be really challenging. I also think that we should also benchmark yourself against yourself. There’s no organisation that’s more similar than you today than you a year ago, two years ago. That can be a useful juxtaposition between the two.

Kyle: I’d agree with that. We’re right now benchmarking ourselves against 12 months ago. What did we think at certain criteria 12 months ago, and 12 months later with the same board, what do we think now. Certainly we’ve improved but we’re aiming to keep going, that’s so important.

Andrew: Just coming to one of our final questions now so I really want to dig a little bit deeper into this one. Firstly maybe to you, David, what piece of advice would you share with directors or would-be directors around the subject of the relationship with the chair?

David: Thanks, Andrew. I think the key thing to understand is that reputation is everything. Your reputation and that of the chairs and that of the board. Also, you need to understand what it is that the chair wants to see from you. What does he or she determine to be success from your placement? So, being clear about what it is you offer, why it’s valuable at board level, what the chair wants and what they want to see from you all funnelled into the direction of reputational quality, I think is absolutely key. So, what it is you offer and understanding the chair’s risks.

Kyle: David, I’d agree with that. Reputation and culture is so important. It does need to start at the top and be led at the board level. Getting that right it flows right through to the service delivery level with staff. Understanding that, to your point, as an individual, I can highly influence culture and my own reputation as an individual, as of the organisation. One thing that the NRMA will not compromise on is reputation and culture. It’s front and centre when we’re considering where we may go in the future and how we may do it, what businesses we may invest in. It’s so important that we walk the talk in that space.

David: The by product of that is that you attract quality board members who recognise that they’ve worked hard for their reputation and it’s not going to be risked should they decide to take an appointment on your board.

Kyle: No compromises there.

David: Yeah, I agree.

Andrew: All right, we’re going to take a couple of questions now from our audience who have been logging in, we’ve got a number of them here. One of them I think actually reflect the conversation that we had a couple of weeks ago when we met ahead of the webinar, touches on the importance of forward-looking of the board and not only the issues that are facing the organisation right on that day. How important is it and how do you educate yourself or have the foresight to look the two or the three years further into the future?

Kyle: I think it’s an issue of asking the questions and really seriously considering strategy. In the past when you have successful organisation in stable industries, you could almost get away with similar strategies and similar staffing levels in a very stable environment for a long time. But to your earlier point we opened up on the cycles changing. One of the most important thing I board has to consider is risk. Risk isn’t just good corporate governance and are we operating within the law, etc. Risk is identifying what’s something negative that could happen and one of those is the risk of new competitors that may be coming in. You’ve only got to look at the taxi industry being disrupted by Uber just as a classic example. One of the things that drives me as a chair is I don’t want to have a Kodak moment. Kodak created the digital camera but then someone else went on and disrupted Kodak’s world. As a board, NRMA or any other boards non exec director need to be asking the question, what could happen, what is happening and what are we doing to make sure that we are dealing with it, mitigating the risk. If you’re not doing that….

I have to say this NRMA right here and now has never been in such a strong financial situation. It’s very strong, all the [inaudible 00:27:07] are good, growing membership, but we know that the winds of change are coming over the next five years so we’re setting ourselves up to be agile and to go into the digital space. If we don’t do it, someone else may well in the future. Everybody as a director needs to think like that and not just leave it to the CEO to think like that with creating the strategy and delivering on the strategy.

David: I think in order for you to be able to do that, board members have to not treat their role as a Tuesday afternoon meeting, it’s about getting out into the industry, having conversations with a diverse range of stakeholders, including your own, including others, so that you can feel those winds of change coming. If you’re just turning up on a Tuesday afternoon to do the meeting, then you’re not going to be well-equipped to do that.

Kyle: I couldn’t agree more, it’s about knowledge. You can go and do every course that you want to in the world and I think education is so important, but it’s asking the right question. Every person you meet, what’s going on in your business, your industry? What’s working, what’s not? What winds of change are coming? And you listen to those answers and you take it on board, you identify the trends and factor that into what you’re doing with your organisation.

David: I speak to half a dozen non-executives a week and the good ones ask those questions. They understand that they don’t know everything and that other people have information that they need. They train on that and they use that for a big part of their careers.

Andrew: Another good question that we’ve got and it’s something we’ve touched on throughout the discussion today, those key words of strategy and execution. Is it as simple as the board setting the strategy and the executives execute?

Kyle: Not in my opinion, I think it’s a joint effort. There’s been various times that I’ve worked in business that it’s been one or the other, but it really is both. These days, from a compliance and governance perspective, the board cannot just leave it to the CEO to create the strategy and to implement it. The board is accountable for having ownership of the strategy and then you work with the CEO to deliver on that. There’s any number of ways you can jointly create the strategy, but in terms of delivering on the strategy, that is one of the risks the board needs to understand as a risk. That’s where the importance of knowledge of what questions to ask the CEO. Where are we up to with delivering on the strategy? How is that being reported over the next 12 months so that you’ve got a review period to know whether we’re achieving the goal or not. It’s a joint effort.

David: I agree and we touched on this earlier, a point of tension between who owns the strategy or how it’s delivered, but it has to be owned at least some point by the board themselves. They have to own it, they are held responsible for it. The mechanisms of how that’s implemented and how you come to that decision…up for grabs, but at the end of the day, the board has to own it but it might be developed elsewhere.

Kyle: So for the NRMA, for example, we have one or two strategy half days or days, and we start to incorporate many of the issues that come out of the strategy in the front end of the board meeting. When you’ve got the financials in a good place, when you’ve got the compliance in a good place, you can start to be more strategic at the board level. You might have a one off event here to determine the strategy together and then you can work on certain issues that need flushing out over the coming year. The board has got an active role and can, in fact, contribute greatly at the strategic level depending on where they’ve come from. In terms of the NRMA strategy, we’ve hand picked new board members from diverse experience so that those experiences can add to the strategy of the NRMA. That’s so important.

David: Do you get independent strategists, consultants to help you with that strategy development or do you do it in house?

Kyle: We’ve actually got a full time direct report to the CEO that is in charge of strategy. At times, depending on the area that you’re looking at … so for example, a digital business expertise, you might bring in an outsider if you’re short in that skill set. The world of NRMA and the future will be very digital focused so we’re starting to employ the people directly because we know that many of the front end service deliveries for future businesses and our investments will be via digital. We’re buying in the skill set at employee level, but of course if there’s a gap, you always bring in a consultant.

David: That digital changes in the future, after polling representatives at board level, I find, and certainly a lot of IT people that I speak to talk about the value that can bring but I don’t often see that translate at board level. I think it’s incredibly important but there’s a finite number of positions to be held on a board. What are your thoughts?

Kyle: We’ve got a view that we want the best of both worlds. If we want a director with digital experience, we want to try and find someone that’s got that current experience but they’ve come from somewhere with other experience in other industries that can add even more value. So we want the best of both worlds, but I don’t disagree that at board level, we believe you do need a greater knowledge of the digital space. When every industry and every business can be disrupted via technology and service delivery on a mobile phone like uber, then you really need to know more as a director.

Andrew: That’s another question that’s kind of come up. Moving on to that idea of disruption, obviously with your background as well, what kind of checks in place or how do you take a step back at certain points in time to make sure … I guess it’s a difficult question, but to ensure that you see at a higher level what’s coming, what could potentially be the risk of disruption for the industry that you’re in?

Kyle: There’s no doubt at all, I spoke of Uber and the taxi industry earlier, there’s no doubt at all that the taxi service response post-Uber has improved significantly. So if they were asking the questions a decade ago or five years ago, what could happen, and following [inaudible 00:33:28] trends, then they may have been more advanced with that response. So, we’re right now looking to understand our core business of the NRMA and there’s a number of them. What’s happening in the world, and there’s already businesses being set up and established which have [inaudible 00:33:45] for the digital type of process. So we’re looking right now to understand that, and then looking at how do we play in that? What is our knowledge in that space that we have? Even if we look to, you don’t just want to replicate, you actually need to find a way to look after your members or customers even more, and with digital technology, but you’ve got to get it right. Many people think, oh, we’re just going to play in digital, and get it wrong. It’s got to be the right digital and it’s about what outcomes you’re actually delivering to customers. So looking it through from a consumer perspective, what’s going on, what service levels are being delivered and are we delivering that now. If we’re not, let’s go and find a way to do that.

David: I think Kyle knows what he’s talking about.

Andrew: Absolutely, absolutely. All right no problems at all, I just have one final question. In your experience, when hiring a new board member, what are the best steps for new directors to immerse themselves in the kind of positive board dynamics? Maybe starting with you, David, what advice would you give that new director?

David: Research is absolutely key. Call it whatever you like but it’s about getting out and speaking to people. It’s about speaking with competitors, stakeholders, internal stakeholders, the chair, other board members. It’s about having conversations. Not necessarily in a formal sense, but it’s about a thirst of knowledge. It’s about understanding as much as you can about the macro and the micro elements at play which is going to help you be a great director and it’s going to help you have a strong reputation with the chair, and it’s going to help you land other board appointments, frankly.

Kyle: I agree with that, it is about knowledge, but ultimately you’re always going to get people who aren’t as confident as some of the more established directors. In fact even some first time directors are highly confident and will just dominate anyway. What I would say is help build up the confidence, acquire the knowledge that you’re talking about. If you’re still not confident, work with the chair, have a conversation with the chair. What do you think about this issue? What do you think about how I could contribute to that on the day, when it comes to the meeting. A good chair will find a way to engage the quieter less confident director to build up their knowledge, to build up their confidence, to be highly effective, that is the role of the chair.

Andrew: Fantastic, a great point to finish on. In terms of wrapping up, I’d like to thank both of you for your insights and contributions today. I’d also like to request any attendees who have logged on today to go ahead and complete the survey you’ll find there. Any questions I didn’t have an opportunity to ask David and Kyle today, we’ll be following up on. I’d just like to thank everybody both here in the studio and everybody logging in for their attendance today. Thank you.